Curse

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Last year, we told you not to keep Zealous Benediction in Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that nobody would use Healing Prayers if a megaheal was added to Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that Protection Prayers was already more powerful than Healing Prayers.

This year, I'm here to tell you "I told you so".

Arenanet, when you changed Zealous Benediction from 0 energy to 3 energy, you didn't do the right nerf. You completely ignored the imbalanced part of this skill, and guessed about the reason it was so popular. By adding a direct healing skill (actually two, the other being Dismiss Condition) to Protection Prayers in Nightfall, you removed the only limitation a monk specializing in Protection Prayers had: being able to heal.

Please take this into consideration during your next skill balance. I remember a time when you tried very hard to get rid of another, less powerful skill combination introduced with Protection Prayers in a build we called "Boonprot". You've made a prot monk's self reliance and healing ability much better than it used to be, and they don't even need to sacrifice their energy regen.

Antheus · Oct 05, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Last year, we told you that nobody would use Healing Prayers if a megaheal was added to Protection Prayers

Then why are there so many healing monks running around?

Sure, they frequently suck, and can't outheal a single party member, but they are around. LoD comes handy sometime.

But perhaps a better question would be - why does it matter? Protection is where it's always been at. Unless you're going against some nasty form of party degen, then protection will usually be a better bet.

ZB isn't as good as it looks. It's downright punishing for skill spammers - making it a very suitable skill for protection, which requires some fore-thought, contrary to healing which is frequently about spamming. And I believe that ZB alone is inadequate, that's why many like GoH to support it.

It's all but useless on heroes.

Bouldershoulder · Oct 05, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Zealous Benediction, in my mind, was meant for an efficient heal for those that still wish to protect. It's also a decent energy management spell, allowing you to heal someone without the big load of energy.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bouldershoulder

Zealous Benediction, in my mind, was meant for an efficient heal

And it is. That's why it belongs in Healing Prayers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

ZB isn't as good as it looks.

This discussion is more about a direct heal in Protection Prayers, not the skill itself. It would be just as effective in Healing Prayers as in Protection Prayers, except you would need to invest in Healing, too. I'm glad you brought up the point of GoH--having ZB in Healing Prayers would shut down GOH being used as a backup heal for it, too.

Right now, Prot Monks are better Healing Monks than Healing Monks.

KamikazeChicken · Oct 05, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

I could swear I always have that LoD monk in the party, but I guess he doesn't count as healing prayers anymore. >.>

Winterclaw · Oct 05, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Seeing how a lot of protect monks often put 8-10 points into HP and bring GoH, I don't see the problem with ZB.

Sab · Oct 05, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

ZB is one of the very few viable Monk builds in 4v4, and moving ZB to Healing Prayers will weaken the build substantially. Are you suggesting this change because of continuity, or is there an actual balance problem with ZB?

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Seeing how a lot of protect monks often put 8-10 points into HP and bring GoH, I don't see the problem with ZB.

You mean other than the fact that if ZB was moved to HP this strategy would no longer be viable.

Sab, I haven't monked TA since the time I used to Boonprot there so I don't know anything about that. :] Seems to me the problem with 4v4 lies more in the fact that other classes (such as N/Rt) support better than Monks do. However, I made this thread with a monk-to-monk comparisson. Let's not get into other class discussion.

So, what would you do to make monks viable in 4v4 if ZB is moved? To me, Monks are to TA in the same way that Mesmers are to PvE.

HawkofStorms · Oct 05, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Last year, we told you not to keep Zealous Benediction in Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that nobody would use Healing Prayers if a megaheal was added to Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that Protection Prayers was already more powerful than Healing Prayers.

Who is this "we" you speak of? There were numerous petitions by people to move ZB to healing as soon as NF went live. There was about a 2 to 1 "not signed" on those petitions. Don't you try to speak about "us" like that. Most people in fact agreed with keeping ZB in prot. The justification?

ZB's entire point is to have a dirrect heal in prot. That's why it opperates as it does and is used as it is. Moving it into healing prayers wouldn't make the skill any "worse," but it would invalidate the ENTIRE POINT of the skill. Its not like it was a bug where a.net accidentally put ZB into prot. A.net designed ZB so (*gasp*) it would be used.

Its viable in 4v4 but still not overpowered (anybody who says it is should try playing a shutdown character like a mesmer or necro in RA and you'll see monks are puty in your hands). Most of the people who complain about prot monks being to powerful in 4v4 are people who don't bring any counters to them (ie, ways to strip enchanments or ways to attack through block skills or ways to interupt).

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Who is this "we" you speak of? There were numerous petitions by people to move ZB to healing as soon as NF went live. There was about a 2 to 1 "not signed" on those petitions. Don't you try to speak about "us" like that. Most people in fact agreed with keeping ZB in prot. The justification?

ZB's entire point is to have a dirrect heal in prot. That's why it opperates as it does and is used as it is. Moving it into healing prayers wouldn't make the skill any "worse," but it would invalidate the ENTIRE POINT of the skill. Its not like it was a bug where a.net accidentally put ZB into prot. A.net designed ZB so (*gasp*) it would be used.

Its viable in 4v4 but still not overpowered (anybody who says it is should try playing a shutdown character like a mesmer or necro in RA and you'll see monks are puty in your hands). Most of the people who complain about prot monks being to powerful in 4v4 are people who don't bring any counters to them (ie, ways to strip enchanments or ways to attack through block skills or ways to interupt).

Don't ever cite RA in a discussion about balance.

Sab · Oct 05, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Sab, I haven't monked TA since the time I used to Boonprot there so I don't know anything about that. :] Seems to me the problem with 4v4 lies more in the fact that other classes (such as N/Rt) support better than Monks do. However, I made this thread with a monk-to-monk comparisson. Let's not get into other class discussion.

In a standard balanced TA team where you have one slot for a healer, ZB is pretty much the only Monk build you can run. Melandru's/Boon loses to stance removal, Shield of Regen sucks against Corrupt. N/Rt and Rt/X healers only work in gimmicks, they don't have the utility that a Mo/X bar has.

By moving ZB to Healing Prayers, you're weakening the ZB build (the attribute spread means lower Prot spec, and lower spec for self-defense skills). And by weakening the ZB build, you'll make balanced teams more fragile and promote more gimmick backlines. That's not good for TA.

Melody Cross · Oct 05, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

^^Thats what he is asking for...a weaker ZB build.

Its not the elites that make prot more versatile than Healing prayers. Its the skills in prot itself. Healing Prayers in general are trash. The HP enchantments are too conditional, too expensive, too slow to cast with poor uptimes. They don't defend as well as Prot spells, so you can't pre-prot with them effectively. Self prot with healing prayers is non-existent to prevent farming abuse.

ZB requires no nerf. Its what protection prayers needed: a strong self heal. Moving it to Healing Prayers will nerf 4v4 monks. I don't support such a move, and didn't in the past. Don't speak for all of us in the future please OP. Speak for yourself.

For me? /nosignever

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

@Sab

Now, how about this: If Healing Prayers was removed entirely from the game with all of its skills included, how much would that -honestly- affect your 4v4 build? Yes, Monks are bad outside the ZB build in 4v4. I don't think the 4v4 format should be the benchmark for skill balance.

However, what you're saying makes a lot of sense, and I hope someone important will read it. I think it's underlining a problem a little deeper than Protection being completely self-sufficient.

Rice · Oct 05, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

ZB to be honest, is a skill designed for team has only 1 monk, such as Ta and Ra where monk have to prot and heal. You mentioned 4v4 format should not be the benchmark for skill balance. but in 8v8 situation, there are way better elite for monks than Zb, specially 2 or 3 monk backline. So maybe we should just leave ZB alone and give TA monks a break.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 05, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Right now, Prot Monks are better Healing Monks than Healing Monks.

So, have you heard of LoD or healer's boon? Didn't think so. ZB is hardly imbalanced, and taking it to healing prayers would essentially be removing it from the game. There is no balance issue here, just the idea that all red bars go up skills need to be in healing prayers.

Sab · Oct 05, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

The problem with the Healing line is that it doesn't offer much beyond "red bars go up". There's a skill that heals, another skill that heals for a little bit more, another to heal yourself, an so forth. There's not much more to it. On the other hand, Prot offers a lot more utility - more "Prot", which is generally better than "heal target for X."

In 4v4, you have to pack all that utility down to a single Monk bar. You need condition removal, hex removal, e-management, self-defense and damage mitigation, all on one bar. Healing Prayers simply can't do that, and moving ZB to Healing isn't going to help. To improve Healing, you need to introduce utility.

Chris Blackstar · Oct 05, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Spazzer,

To change ZB to healing prays is a bad idea. I do not play a monk that often, but it is better served to be in protection prayers. HP has enough elete skills that offer the same type of conditional healing that ZB does, so HP is fine. And yes a monk who is consintrateing on protection does become more valuable to a team if the can provide emerceny healing when needed that will not effect their energy managment as much as the skill provides.

Lastly I am tired of players wanting everything nerf because they are having a tough time countering a build, and just want to complain instead of finding a viable counter. All I can say is learn to play the game, as I said before, I will say it again, nothing and I mean nothing from it's inception has ever been overpowered, skill, spell, or otherwise. "Being Overpowered" is a term used by players who lack the aptitude to develope counters to a good team or build, and simply want a easy way out. Knowledge is power, use it to your advantage, or quit.

Winterclaw · Oct 05, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

To improve Healing, you need to introduce utility.

QFT. In a small party area and when you can't have 2-3 monks with you, you need a utility protection monk that can heal in a pinch. Moving RoF, dismiss condition, or spirit bond to healing prayers would go a lot farther to improving HP than moving ZB. GWEN tried to help balance HP, but two of the three utility spells, Spotless Mind and Spotless Soul are target ally other and take too long to get the job done.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

To improve Healing, you need to introduce utility.

Which will then make it Prot (healing with utility). You're starting to catch my drift, aye?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

taking it to healing prayers would essentially be removing it from the game.

Why do you believe that?

Deadlyjunk · Oct 05, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

ZB is hardly imbalanced, and taking it to healing prayers would essentially be removing it from the game. There is no balance issue here, just the idea that all red bars go up skills need to be in healing prayers.

/agree

ZB is not even good, it's viable at best. It's the only thing that keeps monks that have any effect on the game in RA/TA anyway, other than SoR bonders. I don't get why you're making a point of this tbh... healing prayers are underplayed? LoD ftw.